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60 Minutes Interview

Brother Louv: Here now are portions of the taped interview conducted with Mr. Dan Rather of 60 Minutes.

Dan Rather: Brother Love, what exactly is the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church?

Brother Louv: The Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church is the redemption of man's soul. It's the liberation of the people.

Dan Rather: Could you be more specific?

Brother Louv: Goud made a covenant. I made a promise with his people that when his people were obedient to his commandments and to the life that he set before them, that he would redeem them from the bondage they found themselves in. And the Coptic Church represents in this generation the true meaning of the Bible, the true meaning of the independence of man.

Dan Rather: I mean, this question respectfully, but I also want to put it directly. This is not a put on.

Brother Louv: Right.

Dan Rather: It's not a joke.

Brother Louv: What you're saying?

Dan Rather: No, wiith you, is it?

Brother Louv: The Coptic Church is a foundation that's based on the knowledge that God is man, that God is not some spirit up in the sky, that the God, that the Bible directs us to the God that all of the prophets direct us to, is a living God, and that the responsibility that we have is to live a godly life so that we will reflect that we have a knowledge of that God, but that God truly does live in us, not just on Sunday morning, not just when we put a couple of coins in a box someplace, but that we have had a godly effect and a godly influence upon our lives that's made us adhere now to a moral standard that lifts us above the worldly affairs that we see going around all around us every day.

Dan Rather: Who is the leader of the Coptic Church?

Brother Louv: The leaders of the Coptic church are the elders, the the black brothers. We met Brother Keith and brother Wally in Jamaica and Brother Sampson. These are the brothers that have been part of this doctrine since the 40s and 50s. And those of us that you see here came upon the church in the late 60s and early 70s in Jamaica.

Dan Rather: You came upon it in the late 60s and early 70s. When was the church founded?

Brother Louv: Well, the church was founded. Their grandfather's grandfather. It's been passed down from them. Most of the brothers that are within the church in Jamaica who, in talking you would consider to be brilliant. People can't read or write. Or they couldn't read the newspaper or write write a letter to you. And yet they have a brilliance and they have an understanding that makes them most able to express themselves and bring forth their understanding of what their problem is and what their what they show you their solution to be.

Dan Rather: Certinally we can agree on that. We know from the Old Testament, among other places, not to mention the New Testament, that literacy is not a requirement for wisdom. Exactly. The name of your church is the Ethiopian Zion copywriter.

Brother Louv: These are the exiled Africans. So the Africans who were taken into slavery. The whole world has the understanding of the history of slavery we had. There's in the history books, there's little mention of the fact that God in the Bible had said that would happen to his people, that when they were disobedient, they would have to serve other nations, they would have to have their wealth taken away from them by other nations. And this has happened to the Africans. And the Africans find themselves now scattered all throughout the world. And we came upon this set of Africans, the descendants of the slaves in Jamaica, who told us that they were the seeds of the prophets, that they were the forerunners of those who were to come. They were the forerunners of the generation that is to come now, that is going to abolish politics of what we know of corruption and restore a government that's a godly government upon the earth, and that they and their fathers and their fathers, fathers have been praying for this day to come when black and white would truly unite and form a government amongst the people that is based on the commandments of God, based on love and on brotherhood.

Dan Rather: Brother love. I know that you are aware this will come as no surprise to you that any number of people watching you, hearing you will say that's the biggest bunch of bull crap I have ever heard. Right? That this is either a put on or this man is badly confused, that what he's talking about is not a faith, but is gobbledygook. Now, how do you address yourself to that?

Brother Louv: The problem with Christ and with society was that Christ said, for which of my works the stone? And they said, No, it's not for your works. It's that thou being a man make us thyself God. And that problem has not been solved until this day for I'm declaring that I am the Son of God. I'm also declaring that you are the Son of God and that as I have a responsibility to lead a godly life, so do you. And so do all the other people who say this is gobbledygook.

Dan Rather: I want to follow up on that. Do you consider yourself Christian?

Brother Louv: I know myself to be a Christian by the life that I live. Christ didn't come to confuse us. He came to show the people that the problem was not with somebody up in their high up in their offices or this and that. The problem was that the people had adopted a sinful nature. The people had followed after the laws of man and the laws of society, and in turn their eyes upon the laws of God, turn their back upon the laws of God. Well, we find ourselves in the exact same situation today, a society that is very, very full of ignorance and superstition and misunderstanding concerning God and full of knowledge about sports, politics, religion. Almost all the affairs of the world. Well, we're not interested in the affairs of the world. We understand the world to be part of our inheritance that God gave us the world and gave us dominion over all that you see. But man is the highest creation on the earth. And that man is to rule the earth. But he's not to rule it politically or militarily or economically. He's to rule it according to the standard that God set before his people. So you do consider.,

Dan Rather: So, you do consider yourself Christian? Of course. And then how did you get involved with the church?

Brother Louv: I traveled to Jamaica and I had American friends there who introduced me to some brothers from the church and they invited me to stay there and be their guest. And the longer I was there, the more their civilization and the more of their understanding of Christianity they shared with me and revealed to me until I reached the understanding and agreed that these people are right, that the doctrine of these black exiles who have only maintained the the same life that they see set before them in the Scripture, who have only maintained the same moral code that's set forth before you in the Scripture have been patiently waiting for the coming of a generation that would turn things around, that would do away with the old and bring forth the new, the new being a reflection that all what men have tried to bring about in government through religion and politics and commerce. From Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome, finally down to Britain and America that all of these various systems have failed because of one thing. They failed to acknowledge that God is our head, that God gave us law to live by in the beginning, and that all men have tried to establish since that time has been inferior. My understanding of the word law is that law is eternal. Law can't change. The law that says what goes up must come down. That was true 6000 years ago, and it's true today. And it's going to be true in 6000 years. That's a law of physics. It's a law. We're talking about the word and concept of law. Now, whether it be a law of physics, whether it be a law of geometry, a law of husbandry, whatever a law is, it can't change. To be considered worthy of being called law.

Dan Rather: I see. Let me move on to some other subjects, because I do have a lot of ground I want to cover with you.

Brother Louv: How many members does the church have? They can't count. Thousands upon thousands at the gathering that you people were at in Jamaica. There were thousands inside and thousands outside.

Dan Rather: How about the church leadership? How many of the church leadership?

Brother Louv: The church leadership is the priesthood of the church, and that's in the handful of are of the same priesthood administration that you people saw in Jamaica.

Dan Rather: Are we talking about dozens or hundreds?

Brother Louv: Yes.

Dan Rather: Dozens of people.

Brother Louv: Within the priesthood, those who have applied their life fully to the teachings of the Coptic Church.

Dan Rather: Now how does one become a member of the church?

Brother Louv: One has to give his heart to the teachings and understanding of the church. The foundation of the church, basically is this that God made a promise to his people that when you keep my commandments, you'll be blessed. When you're disobedient, you'll be cursed. So, man, having free will, we have freely chosen to keep the commandments. And by so doing, we are able to manifest our blessing.

Dan Rather: Is there any initiation necessary for the church?

Brother Louv: There's nothing more than this. That a time will come. That you will realize that you cannot live with the burden of sin. And you're going to seek a man who can take that burden away. And the only way that burden can come from you is when you purify yourself.

Brother Louv: If you have a stomachache, you know, to go to the doctor. Well, the time is going to come. You're going to have a spirit ache. And the doctor said for that also.

Dan Rather: But when do you say to yourself, as a member of the church in good standing and indeed one of the leaders of the church, that person is now a member of our church.

Brother Louv: We're dealing with consciousness. I know when you've given your heart to me and I know when you're holding back.

Dan Rather: The church is centered in Jamaica. Is that fair to say?

Brother Louv: Right

Dan Rather: If church is centered in Jamaica? Are white Americans such as yourselves doing in it?

Brother Louv: The world records that one man was crucified. For the sins of all. For the sins of all man. That man was a black man. His blessing is for all men. That's why you see black, not only black and white, but China and India, man from every race and nation come together now in one voice, with one praise, with one communion.

Dan Rather: You know that there are any number of people who are willing to stand up? When you say that man was black man and say Christ was not black?

Brother Louv: Well ask yourself simply this: Where'd he come from? Did he come from Europe, Asia or Africa?

Dan Rather: He came from North Africa, which generally is the Middle East.

Brother Louv: Which would make him a black man.

Dan Rather: I just wanted to drive home.

Brother Louv: crucified an African. They crucified one of the children of the slaves. The seat of the prophet has always risen from amongst the poor, from amongst those who society rejected, from amongst the servants and from amongst the slaves.

Dan Rather: Yeah, any number of people who say, yes, he was a Jew. Do you consider him that he was Jewish?

Brother Louv: The Jews of the Bible are the black people? Yes.

Dan Rather: Well, let me return to the to the issue of what white people are doing and what you yourself say is basically a black man's church. You wouldn't argue with that?

Brother Louv: No. This is basically man's church.

Dan Rather: Not a black man's church?

Brother Louv: This is the foundation of the church is black. The name of the church is the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church. The blessing is universal. God never told any one man that he was superior or inferior to any other man. It's only the things people do that make them inferior.

Dan Rather: There's not a ritual required for membership in the church?

Brother Louv: Well, I know what you mean when you say ritual. The answer is no. This is a heart dedication. In other words, you're hearing the truth and it's up for you to recognize it.

Dan Rather: Alright let's address ourselves to the truth. Is smoking marijuana required of church members?

Brother Louv: Usign ganja is the blessing of God. Ganja is a herb. It's a plant. God created it male and female. It is not a drug. It's a natural blessing. That's part of our harvest. When I say, ah, I'm talking about the millions of people who use ganja every day in every country and every part of the world.

Dan Rather: Now back to the question. If one is a member of the church, is one required to smoke?

Brother Louv: Everyone who has reached the consciousness to be part of this church has also, within their consciousness, realized that they should smoke. Yes. There are none who do not.

Dan Rather: Now you said you had a lot to say to people that you wanted to get a message across to people. Is the basic message you should smoke ganja.

Brother Louv: The basic message is you should stop your sin. The basic message is that the rights that everyone is agitating for, the rights that the politicians claim they're talking about can only be found in one key, and that's in the keeping of the commandments. When you and I are neighbors and I have the security, that you are a man who keeps the commandments of God, then I know you're not going to rob me. You're not going to murder me. You're not going to covet me. So that's the only security that people can have is to stop their sinful ways, stop becoming homosexuals. When they know what the scripture says about homosexuality. They know what wisdom shows you about destroying your own seed of life. They should stop their abortion. They should stop their birth control. They should stop their oral sex, their hand sex, and any way that they're destroying their own life and their own seed of life, they should stop those things immediately. And they should have known to be smoking ganja from a long time for how is it that I know to?

Dan Rather: Forgive me for asking this and I want to come back to it because it's very important, if anyone's, to understand what it is you're about, and what the church is about, i s whether you consider the smoking of what you call ganja. Other people call marijuana. It's illegal. That is just against the law of the United States to do that. As a matter of fact, it's against the law of Jamaica to do that.

Brother Louv: It is not against the law of God to partake of herbs.

Dan Rather: Let's talk about the.

Brother Louv: Your thoughts about marijuana should in no way be affected by police or drug enforcement agents or narcotics agents. Or anybody involved in the scheme of crime or criminology? They have nothing to do with my life whatsoever.

Dan Rather: Sorry for that interruption. Do you consider it a drug?

Brother Louv: I consciously, fully, with my eyes wide open, know that it is a plant. It is a male and female herb. It is a gift of God. I also know that a drug comes from laboratories. A drug is a powder or a liquid solution and compound and chemical. This is not a drug. This is a living seed. I can take a seed. I can put this fire out, take a seat out of this same spliff right here, plant it out in the backyard and you'll see a tree of life spring forth. So I'm partaking of a living sacrifice. The scripture shows you that man would partake of a sweet smelling incense of a holy offering made unto our Lord by fire. Well, that fire isn't in the fireplace. This is an offering that I partake of within my own temple to redeem my own self.

Dan Rather: How did you get into court?

Brother Louv: We were subpoenaed by the local Dade County state attorney's office because they couldn't take the pressure they were getting from the public who were seeing us on television freely smoking marijuana practically every day.

Dan Rather: Now, is that the way you got into court? Was it your neighbors who originally got the police on you.

Brother Louv: Right. Through complaining about hearing the chanting and the church music and even saying the one neighbor next door one time gave a TV interview where he said that he could get stoned standing in his driveway. And through that, that began the foundation of the court case.

Dan Rather: And then what happened? Your neighbors complained. The police came.

Brother Louv: No, the police came many other times, but they never arrested anybody. The court case was a First Amendment, became a First Amendment issue when they realized that what they thought was a crime is our sacrament, is our offering that we make under God every day. When they came upon us and saw the marijuana, we said, Yes, this is ours. Of course it's ours. This is our herb, this is our sacrament. And when we reached into court, the dispute became whether or not man has a right to partake of this herb. And that has become the question that's before the Supreme Court now. And. The burden now, they say, rests upon the state. Because we've established we're a church. We are sincere. And this is an essential portion of our spiritual doctrine. So we're waiting to see what the next move is.

Dan Rather: And if you lose in the Florida state Supreme Court.

Brother Louv: This is a question where we know we can't lose and this is a matter for the heads, the highest ones they have in the land, the highest doctors, the highest law makers, the highest judges have to assemble themselves together now and solve this question, this touch question of marijuana, Who made it and who is it for?

Dan Rather: If the court rules against you, you are, in effect, out of business or out of faith?

Brother Louv: No. I have no business with the Court. The court can't put me in business. The Court can't put me out of business. My life has not changed one bit from before the court, during the court nor after the court. The entire court proceeding is for them to gain some understanding.

Dan Rather: The question: Why spend so much time, money and effort on the court case?

Brother Louv: Were defending our rights and not only our rights, but the rights of millions of people. The time has come that the suffering must stop. As we talked before, while we're sitting here in relative comfort discussing marijuana smoking, there are thousands of people in jail at this moment. For what? Marijuana. Smoking. And that's a great injustice against humanity, whether it occurs in America, Jamaica, Cuba, China, wherever it occurs in the world, that is criminal injustice upon humanity. That is one man seeing something and through you accepting a gift of God, you get thrown in jail. You get beaten. You get kicked. You get robbed. That's not right. So although we're relatively comfortable right now, we're agitating for a much bigger solution than just you and I. Having a little conversation right here.

Dan Rather: You'd like to see the smoking of marijuana legalized everywhere in this country?

Brother Louv: From the time you say legalized. That to me sounds like whiskey. And whiskey is something you can buy from the government. But if you make your own, they'll put you in jail. So that does not apply to marijuana. Marijuana, ganja, is free. We're not fighting for the freedom or the legalization. We're declaring that it is and always has been free. The source of marijuana is not money. The source of marijuana is a seed and seeds come from God.

Dan Rather: What you'd like, let me put it another way, is have the courts of this country agree that marijuana, ganja, is free, is the law of God and every person is free to smoke it?

Brother Louv: Exactly.

Dan Rather: Now, do you feel the same way about cocaine?

Brother Louv: Not one bit. You're talking, you've just transmitted from the realms of natural. We should have talked from the time you stopped talking about marijuana. You should have said, How about celery or apples? Because they're all part of the same creation. But you've transmitted now from living things to dead things. To dead white powders.

Dan Rather: I know you're aware so many people do that They lump every they lump marijuana, cocaine, heroin all together. If that's drug trafficking, that's dope.

Brother Louv: Have you ever seen marijuana?

Dan Rather: Yes, of course.

Brother Louv: Does that look like dope to you?

Dan Rather: In its natural form, of course, it's a plant.

Brother Louv: Exactly, and that's what this is. It's a natural herb and a natural communion that we share with one another, as do millions of other people who have not yet realized that when the prophecy talked about a generation that would come a royal priesthood and a holy generation of people who would set their thoughts not on the affairs of the world, but upon the affairs of Zion, upon the affairs of God, and that our generation is, in that respect, totally different than our parents. We're much more divine and much more godly and much more seeking after the spiritual matters. And forget the political matters. The military matters, the economic matters. We've solved many of our own problems, and we're free to seek after the spiritual truths and build our foundation upon these spiritual truths. So, as I said before, we're waiting for the day when all of the high kings and princes of the earth will gather and talk to the ganja man so that we can stop this suffering now, set the people free. Now, speaking of make these people know that they have a head.

Dan Rather: The record does show that the judge, after investigating, after hearing all the evidence, said that you did represent a church meaning within the meaning of the First Amendment.

Brother Louv: Right..

Dan Rather: Now, let's move on to something else. over the last year and with all the legal wrangles you've had, could you give me some round figure of what that has cost you?

Brother Louv: We should move on from that. We're not here. The money has the least meaning of all in our life. Our foundation, our wealth, our fame, our history has nothing to do with money. Money is a tool, a worldly tool.

Dan Rather: Where does the money come from?

Brother Louv: The government makes it. Mr. Carter makes it. Fort Knox.

Dan Rather: That I understand. But you know, the thrust of the question that it takes money to go from here to Jamaica. It takes money to get from Jamaica. Back here,

Brother Louv: You see the thinking of the world today is based on interest amount of $1,000. They'll put it in the bank and at the end of the year, I'll have $1,060. Well, we don't think that way. We think about multiplication, we think about increase, we think about blessing. We think about the fact that if you have 20 goats that by the end of the year you're going to have 40 goats. And you also would have something to eat all during that year. So we deal with the direct blessing from God. What we put our hand to naturally increases. The people have seen our foundation in Jamaica. You shouldn't have to ask where are whatever we have come from?

Dan Rather: We have taken a look at the foundation Jamaica. And one thing is the trucking business in Jamaica. Is it fair to say that that that's at the core of your no foundation?

Brother Louv: That's just the service thing that's there. That's the lightest part of our existence is the moral life that we live, the fight that we have every day. And that fight is not against trucks and it's not against money or for money. That fight is against sin. The people will become conscious of what they're doing to themselves every day, but by following who they're following, they're on a ship that's about to go upon the rocks. And those same people are God's people. So we want the people to become conscious of the covenant that God made with them so that when they go upon that journey that's destined to go upon the rocks, they will know the truth. They can't say they didn't hear the truth, and that's what we're here for.

Dan Rather: How do you feel about the Internal Revenue Service? Their a bunch of robbers and thieves and whores.

Dan Rather: The Internal Revenue Service?

Brother Louv: Robbers, thieves, and whores

Dan Rather: On what evidence?

Brother Louv: They have no integrity. They have no foundation. They are the most covetous set of individuals. They do not produce anything. They all have little soft, pink, fleshy little hands. They sit in offices all day long trying to devise different ways to rob the people.

Dan Rather: What are your particular problems with the Internal Revenue Service?

Brother Louv: The Internal Revenue Service is socialism. The Internal Revenue Service represents a set of people who do no work, who produce nothing of any value. The most you ever get from the IRS is something in your mailbox. You never get anything you can eat or anything you can wear or anything of value. They are a plague upon the people. The reason why all of the people hate the tax man is because he's an evil. You know that God has a government that God talked to this government of apostles and prophets and priests and kings. Well, Satan has his government, too. Now you decide whether the tax man is part of God's government or part of Caesar's government, part of the heavenly government or part of the earthly government who by their earthly nature, oppose the heavenly government.

Dan Rather: What does the Internal Revenue Service have of yours?

Brother Louv: Absoutely nothing.

Dan Rather: I was under the impression that they had the $90,000.

Brother Louv: Oh, that's in suspension.

Dan Rather: They don't have that?

Brother Louv: They don't have that. They were told by a judge to return it immediately.

Dan Rather: And did they?

Brother Louv: No. They disobeyed the judge's order and said that their lien was higher than the judge and that's why they're going to higher court.

Dan Rather: The police came here, raided one night, didn't find the large quantities of ganja that they thought we would find, but did find $90,000 and took the money.

Brother Louv: Robbed the money that they had a search warrant that said marijuana. They didn't find any marijuana. They found they found some expense money and they directly robbed it.

Dan Rather: They took it with them. Yeah. Then the Internal Revenue Service took that.

Brother Louv: Then we went to court and we told explained to the judge where the money came from, whose it was. And the judge said, I understand. And the judge's order is said twice. When the judge's order return this money to the Coptic church immediately.

Dan Rather: And still don't have it?

Brother Louv: We still don't have it back. It's been over a year now.

Dan Rather: Now Internal Revenue Service, the records indicate that they also took was it 13 tons and then 15 tons.

Brother Louv: Internal Revenue Service has no knowledge of anything that's not like that. They don't deal with anything like that. But you have to understand about the Internal Revenue services, you know, how what an octopus looks like. It's got one head and many different arms. Well, Satan's government has many different arms. You've got the military arm and the political arm, and you've got the tax man's arm. You can't understand the tax man by talking about dollars and cents. You have to understand the tax man by talking about his foundation. And his foundation is basically this, that he sits down in his office and devises different ways to rob the people. To take from you and give you nothing in return.

Dan Rather: The Internal Revenue Service has made the argument that because it's known that you were transporting 13 tons on one occasion, 15 tons on another occasion. Well, they say that they know that the Internal Revenue Service says they know.

Brother Louv: You yourself said they came here and didn't find any marijuana.

Dan Rather: Well that was the police on one raid, was my understanding.

Brother Louv: Exactly. On every raid. Listen. Understand something. And this is should be a very plain distinction in your mind. From America to Jamaica to all over the world know Coptic has ever been charged for selling or smuggling or transporting any marijuana. There's only been one charge using and possessing marijuana. All right. Now, no matter where that conflict comes about, we always have the exact same argument that this is a divine act. It's not a commercial act. It's not a criminal act. It's not a social act that can't be legislated. Whether it's right or wrong, it's man accepting a gift from God. Now, this is as natural as if I eat an orange.

Dan Rather: This is exactly where the argument turns in many people's minds. One The Internal Revenue Service assures me that you're engaged in the in a commercial transaction. A commercial transaction of conscience.

Brother Louv: Who is the IRS? What? Well, who. Who does he say told him that? Well, I certainly didn't.

Dan Rather: But regardless of said what to whom, what I'm asking you. Is that true?

Brother Louv: That's folly. That's imagination.

Dan Rather: Is it false?

Brother Louv: That's why they, of all you see with their big power, they can't take anything of ours whatsoever. And we've asked them for our day in court and they repeatedly withdraw and withdraw. And the last time I talked to them, they said that we probably couldn't get to go to court until September of 1980. We want to face them and expose their robbery and their hypocrisy. Now, you said earlier some people were charged with different things. Those charges were all dismissed.

Dan Rather: No, I checked the record and those charges were dismissed.

Brother Louv: Right. And yet. So why hasn't the tax man dismissed his argument? Because he's a covetous, greedy thief. Now, you said, have you ever seen a thief who who enjoyed being exposed?

Dan Rather: Of course not.

Brother Louv: Well, all right. That's what's happening with the tax man in the cockpit. The thief does not enjoy being exposed.

Dan Rather: You said earlier that not a single member of your church has ever been convicted of smuggling.

Brother Louv: Charged, not convicted, charged. No.

Dan Rather: Never been successfully charged with smuggling anything?

Brother Louv: We always declare the same thing. God gave us this. .We need to talk about smuggling, what do you mean by smuggling?,

Dan Rather: Well my definition would be what is legal and what is illegal by the laws of the United States. And when I when I say to you people, including those in Internal Revenue Service and law enforcement, say, Mr. Rather, what you have to understand is this organization is involved in large scale marijuana smuggling. Smuggling, by that definition, is something that's illegal by the laws of the United States engaged in Marjuiana trafficking for profit.

Brother Louv: When you go into the court, do you swear by the laws of the United States or do you swear by the Bible?

Dan Rather: Of course I would sware on a bible.

Brother Louv: So that would show you that even their courts show you that there is a law of God. That same Bible shows you that there will be laws of men, that laws that society impose upon the people when they ask Christ about tax. Christ said, Bring me a penny. And they brought him a penny. And he said, Whose superscription? Whose image is that on the penny? And they said, That's Caesar's. He said, All right. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's. That's the problem today. The people are all very mindful to pay their debt and their homage to Caesar, but they're very neglectful to pay their honor and their homage to God. That's the conflict between us and the IRS. We declare that our life is a free expression of the blessing of God.

Dan Rather: I'm sure you can see the Internal Revenue Service's point in the sense that if.

Brother Louv: Can I give you perfect example?

Dan Rather: Sure.

Brother Louv: I was in Jamaica, announced when I was driving down the road and a vehicle came up and a tax man came out and the tax man had a piece of paper. And he said that he understood that when we first acquired this property, it was desolate. Nothing planted there. It wasn't even used for pasture. It was just woodland. And now is there's cultivation there. Now there's irrigation there now there are people living there. Children are being born there. There's calves and goats and chickens there. Therefore, we say you owe us something. They didn't lift their finger to build any of that. The tax man knows we are a church. The tax man knows that we use marijuana. And he fully well knows that all the false charges against the church have been dropped. The following stipulation, dated July 19th, 1978, was made by the Tax Division. Department of Justice. The United States of America. One says we are organized as a church. Point two says we conduct religious services and prayer sessions. And point three, that the United States of America is fully aware that the Coptic Church uses marijuana as a sacrament at religious services and has for thousands of years. I know that the tax man and the entire set of ganja oppressors are going to be very ashamed of what they've done and what they're trying to do to this present day ganja generation.

Dan Rather: We're recording now. And I want to pick up where we were, try to bring it round. I just wanted to domy best to get it clear in everyone's mind what you are and who you are and what you are not and who you are not.

Brother Louv: Exactly.

Dan Rather: You are not about marijuana smuggling.

Brother Louv: We are about the sacramental use of God's herb.

Dan Rather: You are not about money making?

Brother Louv: Money is the tool of the devil. The love of money is the root of all evil. We love to bless him. Within blessing, we found a higher way of thinking than dollars and cents. We found a way of thinking of increase and multiplication that you find in God's living creation. While we're talking on Coptic farms, cows are being born. Goats are being born, eggs are being laid. Men in one field is sowing men and another field is reaping. So how can you value that in dollars and cents? That's natural value. That's the foundation of Coptic.

Dan Rather: If I come back, let me put this another way, I like you and every other person, I have to live with my conclusions to live with what I do 4 or 5 years from now. If I say on this broadcast right that you are not about marijuana smuggling 4 or 5 years now, am I going to regret having reported that.

Brother Louv: You're going to be known as the brightest star in the media Heavens.

Dan Rather: If I report...

Brother Louv: When you comprehend that the morality of the Coptic Church, which has been tested and proven already, is what the people need to revive their moral consciousness and to come out of the slump and the spiritual slumber that they're bringing upon themselves by what they do every day, by the perverse attitude they have toward life, by the acceptance they have of the things that they know God said don't do, Then you'll understand whether or not this is a moral plus or a moral negative.

Dan Rather: If I report no Brother Love and his counterparts in the church are not about money making. 4 or 5 years from now, am I going to be seen as a sucker?

Brother Louv: I 4 or 5 years from now, you're very likely to live on an earth where there is no money because the consciousness of this generation is higher than smuggling and cops and robbers. The consciousness of this generation is honesty and integrity. The man could never smuggle his own things.

Dan Rather: With that I can agree with the consciousness of this generation. Is that the question, however, is, is your church that is that what you stand for?

Brother Louv: Our church is a plain declaration of the meaning of the Bible in our life.

Dan Rather: Do you consider it a religion.

Brother Louv: You say religion? And if in your mind you include the pope and Billy Graham and Reverend Ike and Oral Roberts? No, this is a faith. This is a life of living. This is an every minute of every day consciousness. I am the son of God. I know that. I don't believe that. I'm not waiting for someone to come and tell me different. And not only do I have that consciousness of myself, I know you have that responsibility also.

Dan Rather: And it your belief that I am the Son of God?

Brother Louv: Well, of course. Who made you? Did God make you or did Satan make you? I say you must either be the son of God or the Son of Satan, and to know where you qualify. Look upon your own works. If you lie and cheat and swear and steal and commit adultery, then you're doing the works of Satan. And Satan truly is your father.

Dan Rather: Your definition, not mine.

Brother Louv: That's the Bible. I didn't make that up.

Dan Rather: By your definition, is this a cult?

Brother Louv: Cult is a folly. What does cult mean to you? And then I can answer that question better.

Dan Rather: That's the reason I said your definition. Under my definition, is a group of zealots. Who are prepared not to accept any other argument except their own.

Brother Louv: We represent that the Coptic Church represents 430 years of black Africans in the Western Hemisphere. who have worked until they've dropped and their children have risen up and worked until they've dropped down to this generation and they still have not gotten their reward. And you see me coming and hearing this and being brought to this understanding of life and saying, yes, this is true. There has been a great injustice, a great racial injustice done in the earth upon the black people. The time for their redemption is now, but their redemption is not going to come. Politically, it's not going to come with. It's not going to be determined by who has the most guns. It's going to be determined by who has the blessing. And the one who has the blessing is the one who the people are going to seek after.

Dan Rather: So by my by my definition, you do not consider it a cult.

Brother Louv: It's not a cult, the fanaticism that one man teaches himself and is surrounded by a bunch of zealots. The true. He's basically a hypocrite. He doesn't trust any one of them with the whole thing. So when he gets licked out, the whole thing falls apart.

Dan Rather: Let's take that as the definition.,

Brother Louv: Well Christianity, the death of a Christian is not the end of a Christian. The whole world bears record that they crucified a man named Christ. Yet I tell you that that man is my redeemer this day in 1979.

Dan Rather: You don't consider it a call?

Brother Louv: No this is not a cult, and I know that the things the world calls cults are because cults are part of the world right now.

Dan Rather: You've been very patient with us, and I appreciate that very much. And we're right near the end. What question have I not asked you that I should have asked you?

Brother Louv: Who is man?

Dan Rather: Is that your answer?

Brother Louv: You just told me to ask you a question. The psalmist says, Who is man that thou art mindful of him? Who did God make man to be the servant of commerce? Someone whose life could be affected up or down by a political election. Or someone who was conscious that God gave man dominion over the whole. The whole earth. Man is God's highest creation. Man has dominion over every beast, every fish, every fowl. The all of the evil that has been done on the earth has been done by man. The birds don't have wars. The birds don't rob one another. The elephants don't kill one another. It's only man who, in his heart, in his fallen nature, has despised the things of God and sought after the things that are leading them to their own destruction. So the question you should ask is what can the people do to save themselves? And if you don't know who man is, then you have to say, what can the people do when the answer would be they have to find the man who can lead them out of their sinful ways. And the only one who has not been listened to in the whole kingdom is the ganja man. The politicians talk and everybody listens. The parson talks and everybody listens. Well, until now, although there are billions of us, no one is considered to seek us for our wisdom, for our understanding, for how we could have a kingdom based on the blessing we received. And that basic blessing is gone. Basic blessing is life and all his power. The knowledge that we praise God consciously every day, that we are fulfilling that which was written by our lives.

Dan Rather: Thank you.

Brother Louv: Any time.